
Subject:
[cohp] Digest Number 5165
From:
cohp@yahoogroups.com
Date:
10/5/2015 4:17 PM
To:
cohp@yahoogroups.com

County High Pointing in all 50 states
Yahoo! Groups
County High Pointing in all 50 states Group
15 Messages
Digest #5165
1a
SC border disputes by tommyl810
1b
Re: SC border disputes by "Scott Surgent" surgent1
1c
Re: SC border disputes by "Micah" tehuti_ka
1d
Re: SC border disputes by "roy.schweiker@juno.com" accidentlwanderer
2a
Re: Harney Peak - Tower or BM? by "roy.schweiker@juno.com" accidentlwanderer
2b
Re: Harney Peak - Tower or BM? by jlhcpa
2c
Re: Harney Peak - Tower or BM? by "roy.schweiker@juno.com" accidentlwanderer
3a
Re: Stop Making A Mountain Out of a Molehill by doug72901
4a
About making a mountain out of a molehill ... by davidwmolson2
4b
Re: About making a mountain out of a molehill ... by "David Sanger" davidsangerphotography
5a
Re: The Origin of State Highpoints - Rev. #1 by "John Mitchler" mitchler69
5b
Re: The Origin of State Highpoints - Rev. #1 by "John Mitchler" mitchler69
5c
Re: The Origin of State Highpoints - Rev. #1 by nj55er
5d
Re: The Origin of State Highpoints - Rev. #1 by "J W" a2b2c2_345
6
staying on topic by "John Mitchler" mitchler69

Messages
1a
SC border disputes
Mon Oct 5, 2015 6:57 am (PDT) . Posted by:
tommyl810
SC officials are examining 12 disputed county borders.
The only COHP likely to be affected is Williamsburg.


Chapin area among county border disputes being analyzed http://www.thestate.com/news/local/article37740078.html



http://www.thestate.com/news/local/article37740078.html

Chapin area among county border disputes being anal... http://www.thestate.com/news/local/article37740078.html State geographers are working to resolve county boundary disputes in 10 areas after settling one in the Chapin area.



View on www.thestate.com http://www.thestate.com/news/local/article37740078.html
Preview by Yahoo




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1b
Re: SC border disputes
Mon Oct 5, 2015 10:21 am (PDT) . Posted by:
"Scott Surgent" surgent1
It's surprising how many county borders still show "undefined" or
"approximate" on many maps.

If I recall correctly from about 20 years ago, the border between West
Virginia and Virginia along the spine of the Blue Mountains, the farthest
eastern extent of West Virginia, was not carefully surveyed until about
1990, give or take a few years. Apparently the border was defined to be
along this spine, but when there, the "exact" spine is hard to discern. The
Jefferson County HP (WV) lies along this ridge. When we were there, we
found what appeared to be survey markers nailed into trees.

This is a big problem in Texas... as far as COHPing is considered. Not sure
if it really affects people otherwise. Many of the undefined boundaries are
in the middle of nowhere.

On 5 October 2015 at 06:57, tommyl810@yahoo.com [cohp] <cohp@yahoogroups.com
> wrote:

>
>
> SC officials are examining 12 disputed county borders.
>
> The only COHP likely to be affected is Williamsburg.
>
>
> Chapin area among county border disputes being analyzed
> <http://www.thestate.com/news/local/article37740078.html>
> [image: image] <http://www.thestate.com/news/local/article37740078.html>
> Chapin area among county border disputes being anal...
> <http://www.thestate.com/news/local/article37740078.html>
> State geographers are working to resolve county boundary disputes in 10
> areas after settling one in the C h apin area.
> View on www.thestate.com
> <http://www.thestate.com/news/local/article37740078.html>
> Preview by Yahoo
>
>
>
>

-- 
Scott Surgent
Principal Lecturer & Associate Director, First Year Mathematics
Arizona State University, Tempe
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1c
Re: SC border disputes
Mon Oct 5, 2015 11:50 am (PDT) . Posted by:
"Micah" tehuti_ka
Off the top of my head, I can think of two sets of undefined borders in New
England that would drastically change county high points depending on where
the line is drawn.

Franklin and Orleans counties in VT have an undefined boundary, with Big
Jay being just barely to the west of the line, placing it in Franklin.

Lamoille County, the home of the "Adam's Apple" of Mt. Mansfield, is just
barely inside the undefined county borders.

Another borderline example from Vermont, although not undefined, is Camel's
Hump, one of two candidate points in Washington County. The survey triangle
for the high point looks to be just to the left of the county border, which
would place it in neighboring Chittenden County, home of the state high
point, Mt. Mansfield. Mt. Ellen, officially listed at 4083, would be the
undisputed queen of the county. Camel's Hump, at an indistinct 4080+, might
be ruled out if the map were completely clear. But it's not, so both need a
visit. Not too much of a hardship, as the views from Camel's Hump are said
to be among the best in Northern New England. To further complicate
matters, older topos from 1924 show Camel's Hump firmly within Washington
County, but the 1948 update has the current unclear line.

On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 1:21 PM, Scott Surgent surgent@asu.edu [cohp] <
cohp@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>
>
> It's surprising how many county borders still show "undefined" or
> "approximate" on many maps.
>
> If I recall correctly from about 20 years ago, the border between West
> Virginia and Virginia along the spine of the Blue Mountains, the farthest
> eastern extent of West Virginia, was not carefully surveyed until about
> 1990, give or take a few years. Apparently the border was defined to be
> along this spine, but when there, the "exact" spine is hard to discern. The
> Jefferson County HP (WV) lies along this ridge. When we were there, we
> found what appeared to be survey markers nailed into trees.
>
> This is a big problem in Texas... as far as COHPing is considered. Not
> sure if it really affects people otherwise. Many of the undefined
> boundaries are in the middle of nowhere.
>
>
> On 5 October 2015 at 06:57, tommyl810@yahoo.com [cohp] <
> cohp@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> SC officials are examining 12 disputed county borders.
>>
>> The only COHP likely to be affected is Williamsburg.
>>
>>
>> Chapin area among county border disputes being analyzed
>> <http://www.thestate.com/news/local/article37740078.html>
>> [image: image] <http://www.thestate.com/news/local/article37740078.html>
>> Chapin area among county border disputes being anal...
>> <http://www.thestate.com/news/local/article37740078.html>
>> State geographers are working to resolve county boundary disputes in 10
>> areas after settling one in the C h apin area.
>> View on www.thestate.com
>> <http://www.thestate.com/news/local/article37740078.html>
>> Preview by Yahoo
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Scott Surgent
> Principal Lecturer & Associate Director, First Year Mathematics
> Arizona State University, Tempe
>
>
>
>

-- 
But I will accept any rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am
free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I
tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free
because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. --
Professor Bernado De La Paz, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Robert Heinlein
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1d
Re: SC border disputes
Mon Oct 5, 2015 4:17 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"roy.schweiker@juno.com" accidentlwanderer
> Off the top of my head, I can think of two sets of undefined borders in New England that would drastically change county high points depending on where the line is drawn.

More likely is the HP of Carroll County, where a boundary shift S would definitely anoint a different cohp

As mentioned earlier there are 3 other candidate points all in unsurveyed terrain, if we read the GPS reports for one of them it is already higher (we all know that handheld GPS are accurate to within a few feet, right?)
http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC177N6_carroll-county-highpoint


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2a
Re: Harney Peak - Tower or BM?
Mon Oct 5, 2015 7:31 am (PDT) . Posted by:
"roy.schweiker@juno.com" accidentlwanderer
I believe that Paul Zumwalt surveyed it and found the tower base higher, no doubt that point was higher yet before being levelled for the tower

Does the Facebook post give any reason for this opinion or is it pure speculation?

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2b
Re: Harney Peak - Tower or BM?
Mon Oct 5, 2015 9:51 am (PDT) . Posted by:
jlhcpa
Roy,
Here is the actual Facebook exchange:


[John Hasch] - I'm not an expert on Harney Peak, but shouldn't there be a building somewhere on the top? Is this taken at the BM found west of the tower?





https://www.facebook.com/dana.kroeck?fref=ufi

[Dana Kroeck] https://www.facebook.com/dana.kroeck?fref=ufi There is [,a building, I presume he means] - the actual highpoint of SD where the USGS marker is is right where I'm standing- a short hike away from the fire tower! I heard some people don't know the market is over there, but I wanted to make it official!





His comment "the actual highpoint" is what caught my attention.



John Hasch
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2c
Re: Harney Peak - Tower or BM?
Mon Oct 5, 2015 3:58 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"roy.schweiker@juno.com" accidentlwanderer
It may be true that many people don't know the BM is there, what is not true is that it's higher than the tower base

He may be relying on the BM description that it is on the highest point, which is the exact language used for the tower :-)

OT0810 DESIGNATION - HARNEY
OT0810_MARKER: DS = TRIANGULATION STATION DISK
OT0810_SETTING: 66 = SET IN ROCK OUTCROP
OT0810_STAMPING: HARNEY 1950
OT0810'DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1950 (VRS)
OT0810'STATION IS LOCATED ON THE HIGHEST POINT IN THE BLACK HILLS,
OT0810'HARNEY PEAK, IN HARNEY NATIONAL FOREST, ABOUT 5 MILES SOUTHEAST
OT0810'OF HILL CITY, ABOUT 1 MILE NORTH OF PENNINGTON-CUSTER COUNTY
OT0810'LINE, AND 7 FEET NORTH OF THE NORTHWEST LEG OF THE AIRWAY BEACON.

OT0812 DESIGNATION - HARNEY PEAK LOOKOUT TOWER
OT0812_MARKER: 57 = LOOKOUT TOWER
OT0812'DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1950 (VRS)
OT0812'STATION IS LOCATED ON THE HIGHEST POINT IN THE BLACK HILLS,
OT0812'HARNEY PEAK, IN HARNEY NATIONAL FOREST, ABOUT 5 MILES SOUTHEAST
OT0812'OF HILL CITY, ABOUT 1 MILE NORTH OF PENNINGTON-CUSTER COUNTY
OT0812'LINE, AND ABOUT 100 YARDS EAST OF TRIANGULATION STATION HARNEY.

If JohnM isn't reading this, drop him a line and ask him to dig out the survey report from old A-Z

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3a
Re: Stop Making A Mountain Out of a Molehill
Mon Oct 5, 2015 7:38 am (PDT) . Posted by:
doug72901
Well said Scott. While I was not offended, as a reader of a tremendous amount of technical literature, when someone strays from the topic I always cease reading--which I did in this case.
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4a
About making a mountain out of a molehill ...
Mon Oct 5, 2015 11:11 am (PDT) . Posted by:
davidwmolson2

The 'offending&#39; sentence sLanny Wexler wrote were "Don’t we know someone like that today who followed a similar career path? Hillary Clinton. From NY Senator to US Secretary of State to Presidential candidate."

I thought it didn't need to be mentioned in the article. I saw no political opinion for or against Ms. Clinton in that sentence. The only other thing I thought of was to be reminded of another Clinton, DeWitt Clinton, who has a county in the area named for him, and is associated with state-sponsored infrastructure spending, the Erie Canal.

The subject is hardly worth very much discussion. At least we can be grateful that most things that can be named HAVE been named, and there isn't much room to paste a current politician&#39;s name on anything, and some movement to take past politician&#39;s names off things.

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4b
Re: About making a mountain out of a molehill ...
Mon Oct 5, 2015 12:01 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"David Sanger" davidsangerphotography
"Only in the High Sierra, among the numerous high peaks previously without
appellations, we have selected a few to which we have given the names of
some of the most eminent explorers, geographers and geologists of this and
other countries, as will be seen further on in this volume or on reference
to the map. This we have done not so much from any desire to impose
designations of our own selection on the public; but because the dominant
peaks were unnamed, and it would have been excessively inconvenient to us,
in the course of our topographical work, to have been obliged to designate
them by numbers. We claim, however, a full and ample right, as the first
explorers, describers and mappers of the High Sierra, to give such names as
we please to the previously unnamed peaks which we locate; and *the names
thus given by us will be adopted by the civilized and scientific world
abroad, however much our disinclination to bestow on prominent points the
names of great politicians and editors may be criticised in California*."

-- Josiah Whitney, The Yosemite Book, 1869 (
http://www.yosemite.ca.us/library/the_yosemite_book/chapter_1.html )

david sanger photography llc
travel :: stock :: photography :: technology :: media
updates at www.davidsanger.com
t 510-526-0800
m 510-526-2800

On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 11:11 AM, DavidWmOlson@netscape.net [cohp] <
cohp@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>
>
> The 'offending&#39; sentence sLanny Wexler wrote were "Don’t we know someone
> like that today who followed a similar career path? Hillary Clinton. From
> NY Senator to US Secretary of State to Presidential candidate."
>
> I thought it didn't need to be mentioned in the article. I saw no
> political opinion for or against Ms. Clinton in that sentence. The only
> other thing I thought of was to be reminded of another Clinton, DeWitt
> Clinton, who has a county in the area named for him, and is associated with
> state-sponsored infrastructure spending, the Erie Canal.
>
> The subject is hardly worth very much discussion. At least we can be
> grateful that most things that can be named HAVE been named, and there
> isn't much room to paste a current politician&#39;s name on anything, and some
> movement to take past politician&#39;s names off things.
>
>
>
>
>
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5a
Re: The Origin of State Highpoints - Rev. #1
Mon Oct 5, 2015 2:00 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"John Mitchler" mitchler69

Lanny wrote in the Introduction -
"Clingman&#39;sDome, Tennessee was named after . . ."


Protocol is that apostrophes are not used in mountain names, therefore, asEditor I will change this to "ClingmansDome, Tennessee was named after . . ."

Also, Lanny,please let me know how you will incorporate the valuable feedback from Scottand David. I do hope others will provide Lanny comments to improve the article.

- John M.

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5b
Re: The Origin of State Highpoints - Rev. #1
Mon Oct 5, 2015 2:07 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"John Mitchler" mitchler69

Mike wrote -
"COHP isabout mountains, not politics."

I suggested to Lanny that he do some research and writean article, not about Highpoints, but rather about the Names of highpoints.

>From what I can see, most highpoint names are political (orat least social) in nature. Therefore, it might be a tad underwhelming to writeabout the names of highpoints without touching on politics.

Names of highpoints reflect the political and social climateof their time. >From that perspective, I feel it was rather observant of Lannyto compare Clinton to Marcy.

However, given the current sensitive political climate,I'm unsure if I should include it in the final published article. [oops. thereI go . . . using the politically sensitive word "climate" . . . sorry]

- John M.
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5c
Re: The Origin of State Highpoints - Rev. #1
Mon Oct 5, 2015 2:36 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
nj55er
In the interest of maintaining civility and avoiding chaos, I will not post again on this thread other than to say that I am, to use some of your own words, "a tad underwhelmed" by your disingenuousness.

I guarantee you that if I wanted to waste a day of my time, I could find "rather observant" comparisons to every one of the Republican and Democratic candidates for president in the list of state highpoint names. And those comparisons would be just as irrelevant and gratuitous as Lanny's original comment.

Personally, I am sick to death of this thread, which is at its root is a continuation of the refusal to take and keep the "officially renaming McKinley to Denali" thread private. I will not participate further, publicly or privately.

Mike Schwartz

-----Original Message-----
From: John Mitchler jdmitchler@aol.com [cohp] <cohp@yahoogroups.com>
To: cohp <cohp@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Oct 5, 2015 2:07 pm
Subject: [cohp] RE: The Origin of State Highpoints - Rev. #1

Mike wrote -
"COHP isabout mountains, not politics."

I suggested to Lanny that he do some research and writean article, not about Highpoints, but rather about the Names of highpoints.

>From what I can see, most highpoint names are political (orat least social) in nature. Therefore, it might be a tad underwhelming to writeabout the names of highpoints without touching on politics.

Names of highpoints reflect the political and social climateof their time. >From that perspective, I feel it was rather observant of Lannyto compare Clinton to Marcy.

However, given the current sensitive political climate,I'm unsure if I should include it in the final published article. [oops. thereI go . . . using the politically sensitive word "climate" . . . sorry]

- John M.

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5d
Re: The Origin of State Highpoints - Rev. #1
Mon Oct 5, 2015 3:03 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"J W" a2b2c2_345
This has been an wonderfully entertaining thread.  All of you in this exchange publish great trip reports in which I have used many of them...so thank you again.But, when we skirt the political arena, we get all wound up and sensitive.  It is too bad, as that is one of the root problems in our society.  We are so concerned that we are right and that others conform...even under the guise of civility.  There have been so many comments and assertions.   I should probably add a political comment so I can get more dialogue with you all.  I post accomplishments and highpoint info and get maybe one response...so, I need sweeten the content.
And lastly, this was a good one, "In the interest of maintaining civility....your disingenousness."  Oh man, did that crack me up...:)
I enjoy reading from all of you...no matter what side of the aisle...keep it up :)
Climbing with the politically incorrect,
Jim

From: "spookymike@aol.com [cohp]" <cohp@yahoogroups.com>
To: cohp@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 5, 2015 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [cohp] RE: The Origin of State Highpoints - Rev. #1

  In the interest of maintaining civility and avoiding chaos, I will not post again on this thread other than to say that I am, to use some of your own words, "a tad underwhelmed" by your disingenuousness.

I guarantee you that if I wanted to waste a day of my time, I could find "rather observant" comparisons to every one of the Republican and Democratic candidates for president in the list of state highpoint names.  And those comparisons would be just as irrelevant and gratuitous as Lanny's original comment.

Personally, I am sick to death of this thread, which is at its root is a continuation of the refusal to take and keep the "officially renaming McKinley to Denali" thread private.  I will not participate further, publicly or privately. 

Mike Schwartz

-----Original Message-----
From: John Mitchler jdmitchler@aol.com [cohp] <cohp@yahoogroups.com>
To: cohp <cohp@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Oct 5, 2015 2:07 pm
Subject: [cohp] RE: The Origin of State Highpoints - Rev. #1

  Mike wrote -"COHP isabout mountains, not politics." I suggested to Lanny that he do some research and writean article, not about Highpoints, but rather about the Names of highpoints.  From what I can see, most highpoint names are political (orat least social) in nature. Therefore, it might be a tad underwhelming to writeabout the names of highpoints without touching on politics.   Names of highpoints reflect the political and social climateof their time. From that perspective, I feel it was rather observant of Lannyto compare Clinton to Marcy.

However, given the current sensitive political climate,I'm unsure if I should include it in the final published article. [oops. thereI go . . . using the politically sensitive word "climate" . . . sorry] - John M. #yiv5083649341 #yiv5083649341 -- #yiv5083649341ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv5083649341 #yiv5083649341ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv5083649341 #yiv5083649341ygrp-mkp #yiv5083649341hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv5083649341 #yiv5083649341ygrp-mkp #yiv5083649341ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv5083649341 #yiv5083649341ygrp-mkp .yiv5083649341ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv5083649341 #yiv5083649341ygrp-mkp .yiv5083649341ad p {margin:0;}#yiv5083649341 #yiv5083649341ygrp-mkp .yiv5083649341ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv5083649341 #yiv5083649341ygrp-sponsor #yiv5083649341ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv5083649341 #yiv5083649341ygrp-sponsor #yiv5083649341ygrp-lc #yiv5083649341hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv5083649341 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6
staying on topic
Mon Oct 5, 2015 2:25 pm (PDT) . Posted by:
"John Mitchler" mitchler69

Description of COHP on Yahoo Groups -
"This is the place for those interested in reachingthe highest points in the 3,100+ counties in the US. We post trip reports,answer questions, resolve controversies, schedule group hikes, announce state completions,gossip and shoot the breeze."

Let's amend this mission to clarify the meaning of"controversies" and eliminate "shoot the breeze." Perhaps after the word "controversies"we could add "regarding access, highpoint locations, candidate areas,and recognition claims."

- John M.

P.S.
I thank this group for tolerating my occasional off-topicreference to national monuments and city highpoints, which I strive to link tocohps in some way. For example, during my recent trip to CA we visited the Fresno city highpoint (I now have 41 of the top 50), a national monument (I have 87 of 115), and two cohps (Mono CA, Lyon NV) which gives me around 670.

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