
Subject:
[cohp] Digest Number 5194
From:
cohp@yahoogroups.com
Date:
11/12/2015 2:49 AM
To:
cohp@yahoogroups.com

County High Pointing in all 50 states
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County High Pointing in all 50 states Group
12 Messages
Digest #5194
1a
Re: Aleutian Islands by doug72901
1b
Re: Aleutian Islands by doug72901
1c
Re: Aleutian Islands by highptlw
1d
Re: Aleutian Islands by "xander Carlson" xandathor
1e
Re: Aleutian Islands by "Roy Schweiker" accidentlwanderer
1f
Re: Aleutian Islands by "Roy Schweiker" accidentlwanderer
1g
Re: Aleutian Islands by doug72901
1h
Re: Aleutian Islands by "Clifford Young" cayoung114
1i
Re: Aleutian Islands by "Daniel and Elizabeth Case" odettesw
1j
Re: Aleutian Islands by highptlw
2
third opinion on easternmost by "Andy Martin" oldadit
3
WI Manitowoc COHP 4 areas location fixed by Gustav by "Andy Martin" oldadit

Messages
1a
Re: Aleutian Islands
Wed Nov 11, 2015 4:47 am (PST) . Posted by:
doug72901
Really? AS if you don't have enough bucket lists already my friend. :)
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1b
Re: Aleutian Islands
Wed Nov 11, 2015 5:01 am (PST) . Posted by:
doug72901
Well said Greg.
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1c
Re: Aleutian Islands
Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:03 am (PST) . Posted by:
highptlw
Preposterous, hell no!


Feelings and facts are two different things.


Facts are objective. Feelings are subjective. I stand with science! I stand with Galileo! I stand with Darwin!


Facts over feelings. Facts are stubborn things. Science over politics!


Fact: The Earth is a sphere.


Fact: The Earth is divided into 180 degrees of longitudinal lines connecting the North Pole to the South Pole.


Fact: The 180th parallel is opposite the Greenwich Meridian which was established by the International Meridian Conference of 1884. (Please see below).


Fact: Therefore since the Earth is a sphere the easternmost and westernmost points are defined by the 180th parallel.


Fact: Therefore, Alaska claims both the easternmost and westernmost points of the United States, putting Maine comparatively in the "Far West".


Russia and Antarctica has the distinction of the only landmass having the 180th parallel running through it.


The Prime Meridian was established during the International Meridian Conference of 1884. It resulted in the selection of the Greenwich Meridian as the international standard for zero degrees longitude. The purpose of establishing a prime meridian was for navigation purposes and to unify local times for railway tables.






The International Meridian Conference of 1884 determined the Prime Meridian What is the Prime Meridian? - Definition, Facts & Location | Study.com http://study.com/academy/lesson/what-is-the-prime-meridian-definition-facts-location.html



http://study.com/academy/lesson/what-is-the-prime-meridian-definition-facts-location.html

What is the Prime Meridian? - Definition, Facts & Locati... http://study.com/academy/lesson/what-is-the-prime-meridian-definition-facts-location.html Learn about the Prime Meridian and how, when, and why it was established. This lesson will help you to understand its importance to Earth's...



View on study.com http://study.com/academy/lesson/what-is-the-prime-meridian-definition-facts-location.html
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Yes, the 180th parallel is an arbitrary line established by man. Theoretically, the 180th parallel and the International Date Line which tends to run closely parallel to the 180th parallel except where it diverts to avoid islands) could have been established to run through Los Angeles or New York City for that matter but the 180th parallel. Therefore, New York or Los Angeles could have been the easternmost or westernmost points.


The 180th parallel was chosen to go to its present position on the globe opposite the Greenwich Meridian established at the International Royal Observatory in Greenwich, England. The 180th parallel runs through a the section of the globe that is almost devoid of land with the exception of the Chukchi Peninsula in Russia and Antarctica.


As a related topic please read about the International Dateline International Date Line - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Date_Line


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Date_Line

International Date Line - Wikipedia, the free encycl... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Date_Line The International Date Line (IDL) is an imaginary line of navigation on the surface of the Earth that runs from the north pole to the south pole and demarcates the ...



View on en.m.wikipedia.org https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Date_Line
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The International Date Line (IDL) parallels the 180th longitude and zigs and zags across the Pacific Ocean to avoid having yesterday and tomorrow running through an island nation. At one point the IDL moves as far east as the 150th parallel. Over the years the International Date Line has been adjusted to accommodate nations who wanted to say advance to the next day. The last adjustment to the IDL was as recently as 2011 when Samoa wanted to shift west of the IDL and skipped December 30 2011 by changing its time zone from UTC-11 to UTC+13.


PS - Adam Helman and Edward Earl were mathematicians. I wonder what their reaction would be to this debate.


Gentleman: If you wish to establish what is easternmost and westernmost please prove it with facts not feelings!




Lanny Wexler
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1d
Re: Aleutian Islands
Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:32 am (PST) . Posted by:
"xander Carlson" xandathor
The 180 degree mark is arbitrarily defined, it isn't an physical constant as you have said. So the 180/0 degree placement was placed their not because it was a FACT that's where it should go, but because they FELT they should place it there. We could have had the 180 degree mark arbitrarily placed going through Chicago. So in that hypothetical one could assert that Indiana isn't east of us, it's incredibly west of us. But that would be absolutely ridiculous because we define directions generally based on our relative position. Your facts are based on conventions that were based on feelings. It goes against the sensibilities of any human being if I had you on Amatignak Island and I told you that "hey, that Semisopochnoi Island over there? That's not to the west of us, it's to the east of us. And that island you can see off to the opposite end of the island? That's also to the east of us." If you didn't quickly follow up with "for longitudinal purposes only", they'd say you were crazy.

You're welcome to your view of this, but you will have a very tiny minority that will agree with you that your way is the only way. If you look at east-west only as longitudinal meridians then yes, you are correct. If you look at it from the conventional geographic west is left of your position and east is right of your position, then you are not correct. So it's only a fact based on how you view the world.

>From another perspective, we arbitrarily measure height of land based on it's height above sea level. But you could make a system wherein the height of land is measured from the center of the earth, which would then make Chimborazo the highest point on the planet. If you made the claim that your way was right and everyone else was wrong, you'd be foolish, because you're both right based on the way you established your criteria for measurement. But no one will really care about this way because it doesn't have the same utility that measurement from sea level does.

So basically, your perspective is correct, but very few will care about that perspective.

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 11/11/15, highpt43@optimum.net [cohp] <cohp@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Fact: The Earth is divided into 180
degrees of longitudinal lines connecting the North Pole to
the South Pole.

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1e
Re: Aleutian Islands
Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:15 pm (PST) . Posted by:
"Roy Schweiker" accidentlwanderer
>Do any our members know of anyone who has visited the tip of Attu, or
>better yet have any of our group members ever set foot on Attu and/or
>visited the Cape?

I heard there was some sort of Seabee installation at Atka but don't know
how much they get around

My late uncle spent part of WW II at Dutch Harbor and ever since refused
to leave his home town so his wife went on bus tours alone, he'd said
he'd traveled enough

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1f
Re: Aleutian Islands
Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:49 pm (PST) . Posted by:
"Roy Schweiker" accidentlwanderer
> Fact: The Earth is divided into 180
> degrees of longitudinal lines connecting the North Pole to
> the South Pole.

Another fact: if two points are on the same degree of latitude (another
arbitary measure) you can do a straight line trip between them by
traveling either west or east - but the usual description is based on the
shortest route, Tokyo is usually considered W of Los Angeles but it could
also be said to be E.

Suppose you are at 179-59-59 W and you see a pot of gold at 179-59-59 E.
Is it W or E of you and which way should you travel to reach it?

Similarly if you are talking about the W or E points of the USA, it is
more reasonable to ask which is furthest W or E by the shortest route
from the centroid of the USA, not from the Greenwich Meridian. (From the
Greenwich Meridian, both would be exactly the same - somewhere on the 180
degree meridian if you count water.)

> Finally, there is a project here, visit the northernmost,
> easternmost, westernmost and southernmost point of
> the state you live in.
> The purist will need to figure where the surveyed border has
> deviated furthest from the ideal border :(

"Square" states could potentially be done with just 2 points depending on
actual boundaries, and for UT/CO one of those is well marked and easily
reachable. Any state with water boundary may require boat trip to shoal.

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1g
Re: Aleutian Islands
Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:36 pm (PST) . Posted by:
doug72901
I am not exactly clear what your position is on this?
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1h
Re: Aleutian Islands
Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:40 pm (PST) . Posted by:
"Clifford Young" cayoung114
Although I am completely prejudiced on this subject. I also completely agree with Greg.

Cliff

--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 11/10/15, 'fplobdell ' fplobdell@embarqmail.com [cohp] <cohp@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [cohp] Re: Aleutian Islands
To: cohp@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2015, 9:15 PM


 









I agree
completely with Greg.
 
Fred Lobdell





From:
"gregslayden@hotmail.com [cohp]"
<cohp@yahoogroups.com>
To:
cohp@yahoogroups.com
Sent:
Tuesday, November 10, 2015 8:29:17 PM
Subject: [cohp] Re: Aleutian Islands

 




I feel very strongly that Maine is the easternmost
state, and giving Alaska that honor due to the entirely
arbitrary 180-degree meridian bisecting the Aleutians is
preposterous. 


The 180-degree meridian runs through the mainland of
Siberia, so does that mean the easternmost and westernmost
parts of Russia are both a line segment at this imaginary
line?  Of course not. 


It was at an 1884 conference that the Greenwich
meridian was chosen as the international standard.  Were
the easternmost and westernmost points of any countries
different before 1884?  Of course not.


Finding the easternmost and westernmost points of a
polygon on the surface of the earth should be 100%
independent of the arbitrary longitude grid centered on
Greenwich.  To my mind, the only rational method is to find
the geographic center of the area in question, and then find
the points furthest east and west from that center point. 
Therefore, Attu Island in Alaska is the furthest west
point in the 50 states, and West Quoddy Head in Maine is the
easternmost.  Any talk of Amatignak and Semisopochnoi
Islands having these honors is just pedantic and silly.



---In cohp@yahoogroups.com,
<highpt43@...> wrote :


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1i
Re: Aleutian Islands
Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:12 pm (PST) . Posted by:
"Daniel and Elizabeth Case" odettesw
>The 180 degree mark is arbitrarily defined, it isn't an physical constant as you have said. So the 180/0 degree placement was placed >their not because it was a FACT that's where it should go, but because they FELT they should place it there. We could have had the 180 >degree mark arbitrarily placed going through Chicago.
And remember, the need for the 1884 conference was because the French (and their colonies, and anyone who thinks that because the French do X they should do X too) were still using the old Paris meridian (which, readers of The Da Vinci Code may recall, plays a role in that novel).
I also recall learning, when I visited Greenwich myself a couple of years ago, that the Prime Meridian as memorialized on the ground there (I didnt feel like paying the 13 admission fee for the museum which allows you the chance to take a picture of yourself with the statue when youre done; this picture I took tells the story just as well) is not the same as the one used today for GPS purposes (see here for what you get when you hold a GPS receiver over the line on the ground; if you really want to see it read 0.00000, take it over into the trees on the other side of the Wolfe statue in this photo (Do look up from the receiver to check out the view along the way ... its amazing).
Daniel Case

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1j
Re: Aleutian Islands
Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:12 pm (PST) . Posted by:
highptlw
I said in my previous post the 180th parallel is arbitrarily defined. I'm not disputing that. I even used the example of the 180th parallel could have been decided to go through New York and Los Angeles.


Lets use your example if the 180th parallel ran through Chicago. "Technically&quot; Indiana is both east and west of Chicago. Whether you travel east or you travel west you will eventually reach the same place. 99.999% of the people would say Indiana lies east of Chicago because traveling to Indiana from Chicago is far shorter traveling east than west but both answers are correct. However, when we talk in extremes using easternmost or westernmost my argument is the correct one as per the 1884 Meridian Conference which arbitrarily designated the position of the longitudinal lines.


Defining the 180th parallel and Greenwich Prime Meridian was arbitrary as the longitudinal lines could have been placed anywhere. What if the French won out and the Eiffel Tower were on the Prime Meridian or Times Square in New York. Hey, they don't call Times Square, "Crossroads of the World" for nothing..


Since the mid Pacific Ocean was decided to be the place for the 180th parallel to be located by the 1884 conference then at that line your easternmost and westernmost. The 180th parallel and Greenwich Prime Meridian ) parallel defines the Eastern and Western Hemisphere.


Likewise the North Pole is northernmost and South Pole is southernmost; though in the case of the Poles, that point is not arbitrary because the Earth is a sphere. All longitudinal lines must converge at the Poles.


On the other hand, latitudinal lines are not arbitrary. Latitudinal lines are fixed as they are measurements from the distance between the Equator and the Poles.




Lanny Wexler

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2
third opinion on easternmost
Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:43 am (PST) . Posted by:
"Andy Martin" oldadit
(Lanny)
>Semisopochnoi Island - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semisopochnoi_Island Easternmost point of
the United States and Alaska!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semisopochnoi_Island
"At 17946' East (in the Eastern Hemisphere), the easternmost tip
of Semisopochnoi is, by longitude, the easternmost land location in
the United States and North America"

(Greg)
>I feel very strongly that Maine is the easternmost state

(Wikipedia)
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_easternmost_point
United States Point Udall, Saint Croix, US Virgin Islands 6434'W

(Andy)
I'm thinking that all three of these easternmost points
are valid, given different definitions of what
easternmost means, and if we are including territories
or just states.

(Wikipedia)
>>Russia, Fiji, and Antarctica, as 180th
>>meridian passes through them on land

David O. - here is another geographic puzzler for you -
the three "countries" sliced by the 180 degree line.

Finally, there is a project here, visit the northernmost,
easternmost, westernmost and southernmost point of
the state you live in. AZ looks to be tough to figure,
as three borders are supposed to be on longitude or
latutude lines:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_points_of_U.S._states

The purist will need to figure where the surveyed border has
deviated furthest from the ideal border :(

DE might be the easiest state ?

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3
WI Manitowoc COHP 4 areas location fixed by Gustav
Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:14 pm (PST) . Posted by:
"Andy Martin" oldadit
(Gustav)
>>The links to Acme Mapper from cohp.org for Manitowoc County, WI are
placed considerably off of the contours on the topo map.

(Andy)
Thanks for the good work in finding and fixing this Gustav.

The changed values for these four points are:

[Correct Values from Gustav]
< <area lat="43.99711" lon="-87.89006"/>
< <area lat="43.99804" lon="-87.89043"/>
< <area lat="43.91789" lon="-87.95008"/>
< <area lat="43.91879" lon="-87.96405" name="benchmark"/>
---

[former values, incorrect, about 0.002 too far north]
> <area lat="43.99905" lon="-87.89008"/>
> <area lat="43.99993" lon="-87.89054"/>
> <area lat="43.91988" lon="-87.95016"/>
> <area lat="43.92074" lon="-87.96418" name="benchmark"/>

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